The One minute rule.

[raymack]

Alright folks, really just trying to provoke a discussion here

I welcome the new time rule which we will be using this year, I think at the end of the day it will eliminate the long drawn out games which we have all been subjected to over the years.

However I do have some reservations about how we are going to implement this rule. Are most of us going to use mobile phones to time each shot ? Personally I feel that the players at the table should be able to see the clock and as such I am going to look into getting a proper time clock. How do other leagues such as Aberdeen time their games ?

Just interested in your views.

Raymond

[thecentralscrutinizer]

Aberdeen don't use a shot clock but I believe Inverness are away to introduce it. I think that the best idea is to have visible clocks that everyone can see, although they do use stopwatches at the worlds.

There will certainly need to be a seperate timekeeper and referee...

[Brad]

I think it would be a good idea to have a clock available but not sure a normal clock would be any use as you can't reset it every shot. What do you have in mind Raymond?

I've only seen them enforce this rule on the TV and I'm not sure they can see the clock. They just get their "Thirty Seconds" warning and that's it.

Besides, who subjected you to long drawn out games? I watched the cup final last year! Ha ha!

[raymack]

Aug 25, 2010 18:19:39 GMT 1 Brad said:

Besides, who subjected you to long drawn out games? I watched the cup final last year! Ha ha!

Very Funny !! Have you ever played the IO in a cup final ?? You certainly dont want to get beat and have to listen to the 'IO IO IO' song year after year !

I have been subjected to long drawn out games many a time over the years, I have to say some of my own team have been responsible for that as much as anyone else !!

Seeing as I was the Forres Speed pool champion 3 years on the trot I totally absolve myself from blame ! ;D

Regarding a clock, I am thinking along the lines of something which you can sit on the bar or a nearby table with reasonably clear digits, maybe even something you can set for minute with an alarm when it hits zero which will remove any doubt. I have not had a chance to look properly yet but i did have a quick look afew weeks back after the meeting where it was decided to bring the rule in.

Only my thoughts, although I do know some others also agree with me.

Cheers

Raymond

[Brad]

I agree with the idea of having a clock, the type you describe would make really good sense. Find a price and we could maybe look into the league buying a few if they're cheap enough?

I quite like the speed pool, there was talk of getting a game going at the tour last weekend but there were no tables free that were out the way of the tournament games. Maybe next time?!

[martellachie]

I think the same the clocks should be in full view so there is no dispute when minute up. If the league could afford to fund these to each team this would definitely be the answer.

[tonymccallion]

There is no need whatsoever for a visible clock!!! The timekeeper has a stopwatch and calls thirty seconds so that the player clearly hears it and if he hasnt taken hs shot after sixty then foul is called ball in hand!!! Its not rocket science to know how long youve been taking especially considering thAT 60 seconds is plenty. If people start giving away fouls due to their timetaking they will soon speed up and quit messing about. Not needing to have a go thats just my opinion boys. Use stopwatches and timekeepers for a season and by the following season it will only be needed on the odd occassion.

[thecentralscrutinizer]

Stopwatches will certainly be cheaper...

[thecentralscrutinizer]

Aug 25, 2010 18:56:41 GMT 1 raymack said:

Seeing as I was the Forres Speed pool champion 3 years on the trot I totally absolve myself from blame ! ;D

I thought I saw your nose twitching at the prospect of some speed pool on Sat! Duly noted for next event!

[raymack]

Aug 26, 2010 17:10:30 GMT 1 thecentralscrutinizer said:

Aug 25, 2010 18:56:41 GMT 1 raymack said:

Seeing as I was the Forres Speed pool champion 3 years on the trot I totally absolve myself from blame ! ;D

I thought I saw your nose twitching at the prospect of some speed pool on Sat! Duly noted for next event!

Aye unfortunatley my speed pool success was back in the nineties when I was still able to run round the table !!

[raymack]

In answer to Tony, yes 60 seconds is plenty of time to play your shot - totally agree with that and most of us play our shots well within that time anyway. I just feel in a busy ,noisy pub with a jukebox blaring and other distractions, it is not as easy to keep the time as you may think. Only my opinion

For the avoidance of doubt I am not asking the league to provide clocks, I will be more than happy to source something myself.

Raymond

[ian]

I have found a stopwatch/timer on ebay with a 30 second alarm. I am waiting on delivery and will post the details if any good.

[brobson]

Guys are we not getting a bit carried away here? I agree that there should be a time limit but to suggest we need clocks, stop watches, thirty second warnings etc is completely over the top in my view. Fair enough if someone continually takes the P*ss then they should be warned (I think we all know the main culprits here) but a bit of common sense needs to prevail here. The vast majority of players are out for a game of pool on a Wednesday and are not looking to have this level of control put on games.

[thecentralscrutinizer]

This was decided last year apparently? Before I came to Elgin I think...

Not seen that many drawn out games to tbh but there was obviously a demand for it if the rule was approved at the AGM...

[Brad]

As far as I understand it there was a small percentage of games involving certain teams dragging on way past 11PM. Also some teams were perceived to be taking the piss and a committee meeting decided to enforce the rule. It's quite obvious that people are winding the opposition up when you watch someone take 5 minutes over a straight black an inch from the pocket!

I know that as a team captain myself, I will be seeking to agree with the opposing captain on the night not to bother with the timing. Our team, like most, has no problem playing shots within a minute. As league secretary, I would have no problems with any teams who agree on the night not to bother with the 60sec rule, but bear in mind that if you do agree not to play this rule, then you have no right to complain afterwards if players are exceeding the limit!

Like Tony said, if people play the game in a sporting manner then there is no need to start timing shots. I was through at the Scottish Open the other month and nobody there was timing anything. There were a few shots which required a lot of thought and went well over the 60 seconds limit, but as they were rare occurences, the opposing player would quite happily let them have all the time they wanted to play a well thought out shot.

I take my game seriously and always aim to win but the main reason I play is to have a laugh with the lads and a pint on a Wednesday night. I think one or two players in the league need to remember that they can spoil everyone else's night (including their own team mates') by playing in an unsporting manner and relying on obscure (often misinterpreted) technicalities in the rules instead of their own ability with the cue.

Rant over!

[raymack]

Sept 4, 2010 19:47:30 GMT 1 Brad said:

As league secretary, I would have no problems with any teams who agree on the night not to bother with the 60sec rule, but bear in mind that if you do agree not to play this rule, then you have no right to complain afterwards if players are exceeding the limit!

I am glad to see your comment Brad, I actually contacted the previous secretary about this very thing as I felt that many teams are going to feel they have no need to time shots as it isn't a problem for the vast majority of teams in the 4 leagues we have in Elgin.

However I hold my hands up and freely admit there have been players who have continually for many years been notorious for slow play, we all know who the main culprits are ( no names ), I have done my best as a team captain to speed things up but you just cannot make someone play faster. I would also add that the 2 minute rule was in the previous constitution for years and no-one ever approached me at the start of a game and stated they wanted to enforce it.

The first division is where the problems lie, and I know that at the Tennants we will be accepting the rule aswell as enforcing it. I do however still have reservations about using mobile phones as timers - its not ideal as proven the other night when Martin had to take a call on his phone whilst in the middle of timing a shot. Having said all that there were maybe only 2-3 shot that went over the 30 secs ( Gus wasn't there !! ) Sorry Gus, so much for no names !!

Cheers

Raymond

[brobson]

Glad to hear a bit of sense on here. I think the majority of games will adopt Brad's approach but if someone on the night continually takes too long then the captains will have to pull him/her up for it and enforce the rule.

[tonymccallion]

I dont actually agree with that Brad. People were let off at the Scottish Open because they are all seasoned world rules players and these instances only occur rarely. If we let one person off with a 2 minute shot then we must also let off the next and the next and we will soon be back to the old ways. The rule must be inforced! At least for this season. Its a rule in world rules just the same as not being allowed to put balls down pockets with ur hands.

[Brad]

I see your point Tony but I think it all depends on who you're playing ie. their knowledge of the rules and their sportsmanship. There is only one team that springs to mind I've played in the lower divisions who I would definitely say need to have their shots timed (as well as learn all the other rules!) I'll be playing a timed game for the first time tonight up at teh Tennants so I'll see how it goes!

like Brian says the vast majority of people are just out for a pint and a game of pool and don't take it as seriously as some of us. The league is for everyone and we don't want to frighten people away by getting too technical too quickly. I suppose it's a bit like not enforcing the offside rule when you're having a knockabout with your mates. You just rely on their integrity to adhere to it and turn a blind eye if they occasionally stray offside.

[blackspot]

Hi Brad,read your'e posts with intrest,so what your'e saying is after accepting the 60 sec rule at the AGM,now you say that it is upto the captains on the night to play it? so say for instance if both captains agree not to play the balls of the cusion rule then they can play that way? come on brad rules are rules?

[raymack]

It was decided long before the AGM to introduce this rule as it is in the world rules which we now play, In my opinion it is up to the two captains whether they enforce it or not. It is a rule so if one captain wants it then so be it. Having timed a couple of games now it is surprising how quickly most of us actually play. Unfortunately it is neccesary for a minority of players only.

[tonymccallion]

I think thats a complete disgrace to put it bluntly. Rules are Rules!! We have decided to play world rules so world rules must be played. If teams are going to decide amongst themselves what rules to play on the night then the whole constitution is thrown out the window and theres no point in having a commitee or AGMS!!!!

[raymack]

As far as I'm concerned its a done deal, every team will want to use it against us anyway for obvious reasons

Unless someone is willing to travel round every pub on a wednesday night like some kind of vigilante enforcer I dont see what you can do if two teams decide they dont want the hassle of timing every single shot.

Some of us seem to have forgotton that for many players a game of pool on a wednesday night is more about socialising than worrying about rules which probably dont even apply to them.

As i said above however if one captain insists on using the rule then in my opinion they have to do it - simples ! ;D

[Brad]

I agree entirely with Raymond.

If one team wants to time shots, then as it's a rule it must be done.
If you are happy timing shots then there's no problem!

If however, two teams turn up who believe they have no problem playing all their shots within 60 seconds then I don't see a problem with not timing.

I don't mean to sound argumentative by the way, I'm just putting my opinion across. This is maybe the sort of conversation we should have had at the back end of last season before it became wrote into the constitution!

Also, linked to another thread Tony raised (which I agree with), if rules are rules and they must all be strictly adhered to, then why haven't we got referees? World Rules state there should be a timekeeper and a ref.

In reply to Blackspot, the 60s rule was decided by a committee meeting months before the AGM and before I had anything to do with the league. It wasn't voted on at the AGM, I just covered it when reading out the minutes of the previous meeting and the decisions made.

One team has already pulled out of the league this season because they feel the rules are changing to fast and they don't like them. I really don't want to see any more teams leaving for this reason. A balance has to be achieved that keeps all types of players happy.

Also Tony, not everyone at the Scottish Open were seasoned World Rules Players, there was a real mix of players of all ages, experience, familiarity with the rules and abilities. Alongside the top players in the country were players who would struggle in Division 4. It all helped make it a really good tournament though. I suppose that's what 'Open' tournaments are all about!

[thecentralscrutinizer]

Sept 9, 2010 14:28:29 GMT 1 tonymccallion said:

I think thats a complete disgrace to put it bluntly. Rules are Rules!! We have decided to play world rules so world rules must be played. If teams are going to decide amongst themselves what rules to play on the night then the whole constitution is thrown out the window and theres no point in having a commitee or AGMS!!!!

I'm sure that the consensus on this will be to agree on the night regarding timings. The LAST thing that the league needs is teams leaving because of something like this. Compromise and common sense should always prevail...

[tonymccallion]

Il be insisting on playing one minute rules in all our 1st division games this season. This is the main reason most ppl wanted world rules in the first place because pool nights were taking too long. Teams leaving because of the rules? Teams have had a whole year to learn the rules.

[Brad]

Yep, I agree with that. The particular team in question complained to me two weeks after the AGM that it world rules was a season long trial and therefore should have came to an end. They wanted a vote whether or not to go back to old rules but instead of speaking up at the meeting they kept quiet and pulled out.

To be honest, I think most of the problems (maybe all) have been in div one with long games. We certainly haven't had any problems in the lower divisions. It's very rare the games go past half 10, however there is a problem with people who still haven't got the grasp of the basics of world rules. Not helped by the fact that the rules posters are needlessly overly complex!

I'll be dropping fixtures, rules and paper score sheets off in the next week or so though, then no-one has an excuse for not knowing the rules!

[raymack]

It is indivudual players that have caused the problem of slow play, it only needs one frame to take 45 mins or even an hour ! (seen it happen !). World rules have definitly helped to speed the games up with the tactic of blocking pockets not being so effective now. The one-minute rule is the final piece in the jigsaw as far as I'm concerned to eliminate the problem. Its just a pity that all divisions have to suffer for something that is predominantly a 1st division problem. To eliminate slow play I 100% welcome it but I do feel sorry for the guys who have always played the game at a sensible pace and enjoyed their night and are now burdened with a time limit.

[raymack]

Firstly we were beaten last night fair and square so this is not a complaint.

We are just looking for some clarification about the 1 minute rule. My understanding of it was that there is a call at 30 seconds from the timekeeper and thats it until either a shot is played or time runs out. However last night during one of the doubles matches a call at 50 seconds was called which 'encouraged' the player at the table to play his shot a lot quicker than he was obviously going to and he went on to win the frame at that visit. In fairness the timekeeper had also called this on one of our earlier shots.

There is no suggestion whatsoever that this anything other than a genuine misunderstanding but for future reference it would be good to know if this is allowable or not.

Cheers

[tonymccallion]

I believe that this is classed as coaching.
The time keeper can ONLY call 30 seconds anything other than that is only to the benefit of the player at the table.
Its obviously not the players fault but its the same as any other form of coaching wether the players needs to hear it or not.
For future reference and to stop this happening again i think all teams/players need to be made aware of the correct procedure for time-keeping.
A 30 second call and then a foul and bal in hand cal at 60 seconds.