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Post by raymack on Apr 28, 2011 10:49:09 GMT 1
Once again I am confused about the wording in the rules !!
My question is this , do the two highlighted statements from the rules below contradict each other ? Particularly if a player pots say a yellow from the break, then sticks with yellow but then immediatly plays a foul.
H. Deciding Colours
1.General
1.When Colours have not been decided the table is deemed to be "Open". When the table is open a player may play at either group of Colours.
2.Colours can never be decided on a foul shot. 3.Once Colours are decided, the player remains "On" that coloured group for the duration of the frame. The opponent remains "On" the opposite coloured group.
4.Playing a shot after neglecting to nominate a choice of Colours is a Standard Foul. Any balls potted on such a shot are left in the pocket and ignored for the purpose of deciding Colours.
2.On the Break
1.If no Colours are potted on the break the table is "Open".
2.If one or more Colours are potted on the break the player then has a right and obligation to verbally advise the referee of a choice of Colour before proceeding. Failure to do so is a Standard Foul. If a player is fouled under this rule the opponent faces an "Open" table.
3.
1.if the player nominates a Colour that was potted on the break, the player is on that Colour no matter what happens next. 2.if the player nominates a Colour that was not potted on the break, to be on that Colour, the player must pot a ball of that Colour on the next shot.
3.After the Break
1.If a player pots one or more balls of the same Colour, the player is then "On" that Colour.
2.If a player pots one or more balls of different Colours, the player then has a right and obligation to verbally advise the referee of a choice of Colour before proceeding. Failure to do so is a Standard Foul. If a player is fouled under this rule, the opponent faces an "Open" table.
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 14:02:52 GMT 1
Yes Ray, they do contradict each other. The top one is correct. If you nominate a ball you have potted, you MUST play a legal shot next.
I've recently written an email to the WEPF Rules Commitee member highlighting several contradictions and grammatical errors which lead to confusion (including this one). Hopefully they'll do something about it!
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Post by tonymccallion on Apr 28, 2011 14:48:14 GMT 1
I think the first one means when its an open table say after a dry break and the second means if u pot a red on the break then pot a red ur still on it
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Post by raymack on Apr 28, 2011 15:21:26 GMT 1
Reason I ask is that in Adam and I's game last night Adam broke, potted a red, nominated reds and then played a foul because nothing hit a cushion (being a true sportsman Adam called a foul against himself because I wasn't paying attention !  ) I planned on playing yellows anyway so it made no difference but at the back of my mind was the rule about 'colours can never be decided on a foul shot' and therefore would it have been an 'open table' for my first visit. Just when I think I have the rules sorted something else crops up. ! |
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 18:44:01 GMT 1
Yes, that's an open table mate.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 19:30:50 GMT 1
You have got this wrong. The first point pertains to a situation where it is an open table and you play a shot but pot the White as you pot a yellow/red. In this instance the table remains open.
Point 2 refers to a situation like last night. I broke and potted a ball, I nominated red as i had potted red, therefore I remain reds irrespective of what happens next. I could play a df on yellows if it is to my advantage in this scenario eg to clear a bag or cover a bag.
Make sense?
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 20:25:54 GMT 1
I'm fairly certain you have to play a legal shot after nominating mate.
Excerpt from World Rules Summary Sheet:
If a ball or balls are potted on break the breaker has 'open table' and must then nominate. If he nominates the colour he has potted from break he must only play a legal shot to be on that colour. If however he nominates a colour he has not potted from break he must legally pot a ball of that colour to be on that colour.
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 20:28:37 GMT 1
Just confirmed with Mike McDonald, it is an open table if you fail to play a legal shot after nominating the balls you potted off the break.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 20:43:04 GMT 1
That is definitely not how it has been explained to me in the past but must bow to the superior knowledge of the SEPF supremos. I am sure I have been burnt by this in the past too! Blackball rules for next season please, much easier to understand. Thank you!  |
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 20:44:57 GMT 1
Just confirmed with Mike McDonald, it is an open table if you fail to play a legal shot after nominating the balls you potted off the break. Just checking. Say you pot a red off the break and nominate reds then play a red onto a yellow (as df to cover a bag) it is an open table? |
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 20:52:14 GMT 1
Aye, any foul after nominating leaves an open table mate.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 21:11:50 GMT 1
Oracle says no...
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 21:37:55 GMT 1
If you play a red onto a yellow under the circumstances you've wrote above, then either the yellow pots or you don't hit a cushion (I assume that's ahat you meant?) then it would be a foul and a free table.
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 21:42:35 GMT 1
I must admit, it looks like I may be wrong then.
The EPA site says that as well. I've always took a free table after a player has fouled after nominating, and opponents have always done that to me. Mike agreed with me before. Confused now! lol!
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 21:48:37 GMT 1
I must admit, it looks like I may be wrong then. The EPA site says that as well. I've always took a free table after a player has fouled after nominating, and opponents have always done that to me. Mike agreed with me before. Confused now! lol!  |
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Post by raymack on Apr 28, 2011 21:51:17 GMT 1
Apologies for opening a can of worms here......it was when I read the rules over today that the issue became confused for me - like I say they seem to contradict each other  |
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 21:55:17 GMT 1
They certainly do, as does the official summary sheet which agrees with me.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 21:59:24 GMT 1
Better to be clear Raymond and this is exactly the type of issue that this forum (amongst others) helps to clarify. However, rather than knowing how to apply the rules I would prefer to be competent at playing them...  |
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 22:02:31 GMT 1
Thing is though Adam, there's been many a time when I've potted say a red off the break, reds look really good but I can't hit one so I've nominated yellows and tried to leave nothing on. What you're saying (and the rules agree) is that I could nominate reds then play any sort of foul and that's me on reds.
If that's the case, then I've probably thrown away lots of games I could have won, and so have many others. Unless I'm wrong, I think the majority of players round here are playing it the way I have been. Like I said, Mike McDonald agreed with me, so something is obviously totally wrong somewhere. If the rule is as it says, why are so many people playing it wrong?! Weird...
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 22:12:37 GMT 1
All I can say is that I have had this scenario happen to me many times since I took up pool competitively in Aberdeen 5 years ago (Ah, the good old Cutters Wharf!).
It has always been explained to me that you could nominate your suit after potting on the break and NOTHING could stop you from being that suit after you verbalise your choice.
Perhaps the difference is that the rules were explained to me and demonstrated with players who had been using them for some time...
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 22:16:22 GMT 1
Could be. When we adopted the rules, all the pubs were given the ADPL summary sheet which may well be wrong!
Then agin when I've played WR before in three different English leagues, I'm fairly sure we played it that way too. That's what's confusing me most!
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Post by Brad on Apr 28, 2011 22:20:57 GMT 1
Well, another former SEPF committee member has stated that the rules are correct and we are wrong!
Pot a red off the break, nominate reds then do whatever you please and you are still on reds.
I'll have to get all the ADPL summary sheets taken down from the pubs as they are completely wrong! Can anyone reading this please educate the rest of your team?
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 28, 2011 22:23:43 GMT 1
Could be. When we adopted the rules, all the pubs were given the ADPL summary sheet which may well be wrong Organ grinder, monkey springs to mind...  Lessons learned for next time there is a query (as I am sure there will be). A link to the official, up to date World Rules page either WEPF or EPA would be welcome on this site. |
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Post by Brad on Apr 29, 2011 1:19:44 GMT 1
Definitely, I'll make sure the SEPF site is updated and have suggested to the ADPL that they take down or ammend their summary sheet which is wrong.
Cheer Ray for raising the point, just goes to show that discussion works!
There are still some rules on the WEPF rules that are wrong/misleading, such as the legal break rule previously discussed on this site...
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Post by raymack on Apr 29, 2011 8:26:45 GMT 1
So....just for the avoidance of doubt,
When you pot a ball of the break and then nominate that ball you are on it for the remainder of the frame no matter what.
Technically nominating your colour must be allocated to the break shot ? So when you play your next shot colours have actually been decided which renders the 'colours cannot be decided on a foul' irrelevant in that frame.
While we are on the subject is there anything in the rules about outrageous flukes ?? ;D
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Apr 29, 2011 9:08:34 GMT 1
So when you play your next shot colours have actually been decided which renders the 'colours cannot be decided on a foul' irrelevant in that frame. That is talking about an open table. Like when you come to the table and it's open, pot red and White goes down as well. No colours are decided, table remains open with shots to opponent. While we are on the subject is there anything in the rules about outrageous flukes ?? ;D LOL! You're safe there. For now... |
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Post by Brad on Apr 29, 2011 9:45:02 GMT 1
I've emailed Mark Gravener about updating SEPF site and PM's Chris Lawrie about changing/removing that incorrect summary sheet.
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Post by raymack on Apr 29, 2011 14:18:28 GMT 1
That is talking about an open table. Like when you come to the table and it's open, pot red and White goes down as well. No colours are decided, table remains open with shots to opponent. If only it had stated that in the rules ! |
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Post by tonymccallion on Apr 29, 2011 18:43:29 GMT 1
I did try and tell yous all this with my post a mile up this thread lol
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Post by raymack on Nov 3, 2011 1:23:52 GMT 1
I did try and tell yous all this with my post a mile up this thread lol It was a few months ago i s'pose Tony . ;D |
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) I planned on playing yellows anyway so it made no difference but at the back of my mind was the rule about 'colours can never be decided on a foul shot' and therefore would it have been an 'open table' for my first visit.
