Decisions & Minutes of Committee Meeting

[Brad]

Elgin & District Pool League
Committee Meeting
Bonnie Earl, 29th November 2010


In Attendance:
Secretary: Brad Wight
Committee Member: Ian MacLennan
SEPF Regional Chairman: Adam Macleod
League Player: Ben Royan
League Player: Garey Steele

Apologies:
Chairman/Treasurer: John Kinnaird
Committee Member: Raymond Mackenzie
Committee Member: Debby Greig
League Player: Tony McCallion Jnr
League Player: Martin Hendry


A committee meeting took place in the Bonnie Earl lounge at 8PM on Monday 29th November 2010.

Unfortunately due to the poor weather, several committee members were unable to attend as were a few other players who had intended on coming.


Matters discussed are listed below:

1 Moving to a three division format due to insufficient number of teams in league.
2 Promotion/relegation for 2010-11 if the above motion was accepted.
3 Singles & Doubles entry rule.
4 Ranking system for next season.
5 Venue for Meldrum Cup.
6 Venue for Finals Day..
7 Summer league.
8 Funds in bank.
9 Morayshire County Championship.
10 Date for AGM.


1) Moving to a three division format due to insufficient number of teams in league.

The Secretary proposed that next season the League adopt a three division format as at the minute there are only 28 teams in the league and it is looking likely that the number may fall further before the end of the season. At present there are 8 teams in D1, 8 in D2, 7 in D3 and 5 in D4.

Ben Royan asked the Secretary to try to attract as many new teams into the League as possible before the start of the season in the hope that we may be able to retain four divisions of eight. The Secretary assured the meeting that he would try his best to do this and will speak to pubs in the district and also in Lossiemouth.

Those present unanimously agreed that if we can not get the League back up to full strength then we will move to three divisions next season.

Whether to move to divsions of 9 or 10 teams was also discussed and it was agreed by all present to keep an even number of teams in each division with division three being slightly smaller if there are less than 30 teams in the league.

Therefore; if 30 or less teams enter next season, the League will move to a three tier format with 10 teams in each of the top two divisions and the remainder in division three. The League season will kick off on August 31 2011 with a preliminary round of the division cup being played the week earlier, August 24 2011. The season will then continue as it has this year with finals day on May Day Sunday.


2) Promotion/relegation for 2010-11

The Secretary proposed, that having agreed to adopt a three division format, there should be no relegations at the end of the current season. Two teams shall be promoted to division one, four teams promoted to division two and everyone else promoted up to division three.

Adam Macleod suggested retaining a relegation place to keep the League competitive. The Secretary explained that he had considered this but after conferring with the Chairman had dismissed the idea as it would mean a division one team losing their place to a mid-table division two team and a division two team losing out to the 5th place team in division three.

All present agreed with the proposal and therefore there will be no relegations this season unless enough teams can be found to keep a four division League.


3) Singles & Doubles entry rule.

The Secretary brought up the fact that a rule widely believed to be in force was merely a 'word of mouth' rule.

The rule being that "A player/partnership must play for a League team in order to enter the end of season singles & doubles competitions."

The Secretary wished to amend the constitution to incorporate this rule. All present agreed and it was then discussed whether or not a player should be "registered to play" or should have "actually played a game" for a team in the League. After a lengthy discussion it was agreed by all present that a player should have played a minimum of one game for a team in order to enter the singles or doubles at the end of the same season.

It was also mentioned that the present singles format where the first few rounds are played over three frames is too short. The Secretary explained that he has already gave the matter consideration and would like, if possible, to play matches over more frames.

Adam Macleod suggested adopting a system widely used in other pool leagues and in the local snooker league where the draw for the first round of the singles is made earlier in the year and players arrange with each other to play the games at a time and place of their own choosing. All agreed this was a good suggestion although the Secretary and Ian Maclennan both agreed with Ben Royan when hesaid that it was too big a change to decide at a normal meeting and it would be a good matter for the next AGM.

The Secretary said he is considering playing the semi finals as well as the final of the singles competition on Finals Day to allow earlier rounds to have more frames. Again, this will be spoken about in more depth at a later meeting.


4) Ranking system for next season.

Following on from a popular web-forum proposal by Tony McCallion, the meeting discussed adopting a points system to rank all league players' performances from the start of next season with the intention of working out the Player of the Year for each of the three divisions. All were agreed that this was an excellent idea which warranted further thought and planning.

The Secretary would like to request that Tony McCallion comes up with proposals for a workable ranking system and presents them on the website.

The Secretary mentioned a proposal on behalf of the Chairman; that if the League adopts a performance ranking system with prizes attached, the teams on the night of any League games should be written out without reference to the other team's order of play. In other words, the away team will no longer have the chance to see the home team's order before the start of the match and vise versa. This will prevent a strong player fiddling the rankings by intentionally selecting themselves to play the weakest player on the opposing team. All present agreed that this was a good idea and that if a ranking system is adopted this should be strongly considered for inclusion in the rules.


5) Venue for Meldrum Cup Final.

It was agreed to wait until we have a better idea who will be in the final before selecting a venue.


6) Venue for Finals Day.

The Secretary explained that when he took over the position it was explained to him that it had been decided a few years ago to rotate Finals Day around the pubs in the League with more than one pool table. Last season it was held at the Bonnie Earl and the previous year at the Kingsmills, leaving the Tennant Arms as the only other pub on the shortlist. The Secretary explained that he feels it is the Tennant's turn to host Finals Day and asked the meeting to agree this. He also explained that he has canvassed a lot of players and while the majority are happy to agree with the choice, there are a few who feel Finals Day should always be held in a central location.

The Secretary offered Tony McCallion's idea that somewhere like the Town Hall should be used with hired tables and a bar licence while Adam Macleod suggested Bowl 2000 be used. Ben Royan responded to Tony McCallion's idea saying that he feels Finals Day should be kept amongst the member pubs and clubs of the League. The Secretary explained that he was under the impression that on previous Finals Days, Bowl 2000 were unwilling to provide a buffet for players and spectators which angered the committee.

In the end, all present agreed that if the management of the Tennant Arms wish to host Finals Day then it shall be held there on May Day bank holiday weekend, Sunday 1st May 2011. The Secretary has asked Raymond Mackenzie to speak to the manager of the Tennant Arms and return with an answer as soon as possible.

All present also agreed that future Finals Days should be open to bids from suitable venues and that the matter will be discussed in more detail at a later meeting.


7) Summer league.

The Secretary had planned to ask Raymond Mackenzie to elaborate on an idea he posted on the web-forum regarding a relaxed summer league, possibly with four man teams and no rigid dates for fixtures. Lots of players who play during the summer like the idea and the Secretary wishes to take the matter further. Unfortunately, Raymond could not make the meeting due to the snow and in his abscence the Secretary did a pretty poor job of explaining how it might work!

The Secretary would like to request that Raymond Mackenzie present via the web-forum a proposal for a workable summer league for those players who would like to play all year round.


8) Funds in bank.

The Secretary explained that there is a substantial amount of money in the League bank account and that even after paying for trophies at the end of the season there will still be a large amount. He is concerned that it isn't getting used for anything and would rather see it spent or invested in the league than just sitting in the bank.

Garey Steele and Adam Macleod both requested that additional trophies be purchased for winning teams at the end of the season. At the moment, only seven trophies are awarded per team, however many teams have more than seven regular players. The Secretary agreed with this proposal and will discuss it with the Treasurer when the trophies are due to be ordered.

The Secretary proposed awarding a cash prize for the winners of the Player if the Year, Singles, Doubles, KO Cup and League. Again those present agreed it was a good idea which merits further discussion.

The possibility of purchasing pool tables in conjunction with the SEPF for use on Finals Day as well as the Regional Tour was discussed and dismissed due to lack of a suitable storage place and the cost of repair if they were to become damaged.


9) Morayshire County Cup.

The final SEPF Region 4 tour event of 2011 will double up as the inaugural Morayshire County Cup tournament.

The Secretary asked the meeting if anyone had any ideas for sponsorship or dedications for the cup. Ian Maclennan suggested a particular distillery and Adam Macleod suggested the Northern Scot.

The Secretary will contact both to see if they might be interested in sponsoring the competition which is hoped will become an important annual event.

The Secretary explained that if it gathers more interest than expected, the event may have to run into the Sunday. Adam Macleod replied that this shouldn't pose a problem.


10) AGM Date

The Secretary explained that if the season is to start earlier than normal, it would make sense to have the AGM earlier than normal next year. Also after last year's AGM, some players came forward with good ideas to improve the league but were too late as the season had already begun.

The Secretary suggested holding the AGM on Wednesday 27th July but was pursuaded by the committee to hold it even earlier, nearer the end of this season than the beginning of next.

It was agreed by all present that next year's AGM will be held on Wednesday 1st June 2011.



The meeting was closed at 9:30PM with no other matters to be discussed.


B.Wight
Secretary
Elgin & District Pool League
30th November 2010

[tonymccallion]

Im a committee member not a player haha, sorry i couldnt make the meeting but was good to put in some input over the phone.
I agree with everything bar 2 things.
I strongly think that an actual venue needs to be used for doubles singles etc even if it needed to be over two days with the Bowl 2000 being the only proper one there is .
At least 4 tables , plenty space , imagine if there was 30 players stuck round 2 tables in the tennents?
Im sure the bowl would put on a spread if they were actually asked to instead of moaning about it afterwards?
Secondly with regards to Adams suggestion on singles/doubles being done throughout the season.
This is an excellent proposal and sorry Ben/Ian but how can this league move forward without "change".
Its at most 3 nights a year for an hour or 2?
Will solve ALL problems, not enough frames, players not turning up, moans/groans about venues.
We should learn from the likes of the Aberdeen league which is probably the most experienced and best run in Scotland.
Thats my rant over haha

[raymack]

Nov 30, 2010 23:22:29 GMT 1 tonymccallion said:

Im a committee member not a player haha, sorry i couldnt make the meeting but was good to put in some input over the phone.
I agree with everything bar 2 things.
I strongly think that an actual venue needs to be used for doubles singles etc even if it needed to be over two days with the Bowl 2000 being the only proper one there is .
At least 4 tables , plenty space , imagine if there was 30 players stuck round 2 tables in the tennents?
Im sure the bowl would put on a spread if they were actually asked to instead of moaning about it afterwards?
Secondly with regards to Adams suggestion on singles/doubles being done throughout the season.
This is an excellent proposal and sorry Ben/Ian but how can this league move forward without "change".
Its at most 3 nights a year for an hour or 2?
Will solve ALL problems, not enough frames, players not turning up, moans/groans about venues.
We should learn from the likes of the Aberdeen league which is probably the most experienced and best run in Scotland.
Thats my rant over haha

I'm itching to reply to this but can't be bothered at this time of night !!

[Brad]

Tony, unfortunately you're not actually on the committee at the minute. We voted at the AGM to reduce the number of places on the committee and those who turned up were re-elected.

John Kinnaird, Dave Hector, Myself, Ian Maclennan, Raymond Mackenzie and Debby Greig are on the committee at the moment, although I will happily see any player in the league come along to routine committee meetings if they wish to have their say.

By all means nominate yourself for the committee next year and feel free to turn up to meetings in the meantime. You have had some very good ideas although most of them were immediately after the AGM and were too late to be adopted this season. That's one of the reasons I decided to move the AGM forward in the calendar next year.

We discussed at length last night the format for doubles/singles and most agreed that we actually like the current format but feel that there are not enough frames. I think the majority of players like the atmosphere of playing in a neutral pub with seven other players who you may not know.

Having 30 people around the tables in the Tennants wouldn't be too dissimilar to last year in the Bonnie which nobody complained about. The Tennants is as much a member of the league as any other pub in Elgin, Burghead, Hopeman etc and shouldn't be ignored because of its location. It's not like Finals Day will be held there every year and it also has the beer garden which no pub in Elgin can offer at the moment!

As said, this is for this season only and we will fully consider all available options next season.

I personally haven't spoken to the Bowl but I know the previous Secretary did and was told a free spread for the players and spectators wouldn't be made available hence the decision to move the Finals Day away from the Bowl. I am not saying it won't be played there again, far from it!

You also say the Bowl is the only venue big enough for four tables on Finals Day. The City Club springs to mind as a place that could hold twice as many!

Ben and Ian didn't say they didn't want to change the singles format with regards to Adam's idea. They merely suggested it was too big a change to make right now after a meeting with 5 people, only two of whom are committee members. Ben rightly said that making a change that big would be a matter for the AGM where all teams can have their say. I fully agree with that statement and wouldn't dream of making a change that big without consulting everyone else.

Also, I take on board your comments about learning from the Aberdeen League (amongst many other Scottish and English Leagues.) I regularly read their website and have seen some very good ideas, especially relating to your idea of the ranking system. The ranking system Aberdeen use could easily be adapted to our own League.

You must remember though that you can't copy entirely what Aberdeen do and impose it on the Elgin League. We must listen to what the players in our League want and many of them don't want to change too much too quickly. I am trying to maintain a healthy balance between progressive change for the better and not pissing people off and it's proving to be a very fine line. Lots of the less serious players are still learning the World Rules never mind anything else and I have to keep these players happy as well as the 'elite' players!

There's not a lot wrong with our league but there is so much that can be improved, it's just a matter of focusing on the right things and not doing too much at once. The League would be nothing without the players and that's why I am trying my best to keep as many as possible happy.

I keep a log of suggestions, questions and complaints which need to be discussed at the AGM and the points raised and discussed last night which were left in the balance will all be revisited at some point. Hopefully we can discuss these points further either on here, or at a meeting, so that we can go to the AGM and present a proper argument for change which will appeal to the majority.

[benttd]

Morning Guys,

Brad, You have saved me the job of replying to Tonys comments. I agree with everything you have said regarding Tonys suggestions. What i will further add that is if we change things to quickly then more teams may pull out and you end up having two leagues and further from this, they do a breakaway league like what happened in the darts maybe ten or so years back.
We have to remember that we have come a long way in a short space of time and the progress to date has been first class.

[raymack]

Tony, there is no doubt that Bowl 2000 is an ideal venue for finals day or any other pool competition you care to mention. It was the preferred option when Alan(Duncan) ran the league and it was held there 3-4 years running, but as I recall there was much moaning and groaning from other publicans who quite rightly felt that they could also hold a successful finals day - something which has been subsequently proven to be true. Since then it has been decided at committe meetings who is awarded finals day which is in my opinion the fairest way to do it. In any case Bowl dont have any teams in the EDPL this year and as such any consideration given to them would have been a huge slap in the face to pubs who have supported the league, singles and doubles for many years.

Adam's idea for the singles is interesting but I would say as soon as you move pool away from a wednesday night it becomes difficult. Keeping it as it is with longer games would be the best option in my view. The one-minute rule should ensure that games do not drag on for hours.

[tonymccallion]

So committee members that couldnt make the AGM were not asked if they want to remain?
Who mentioned ingnoring the tennants due to its location?
The City club is the same as booking a hall where u would also need to pay for tables like you mentioned in your minutes.
Its not that big a change considering it will not take affect for another Year?
I used Aberdeen as an example for one point no one said lets copy everything they do!
"Less serious" meaning dont care too much??
Raymond - I really dont mind where i play my pool im just thinking of the biger picture with playing more games etc on finals day and having more tables.
What i dont get though, and this isnt a dig at you, but why is it about keeping the pubs happy? All pubs get their fair share during the season. Lossie for example have a great finals day in the same venue every year other pubs dont complain because they cant offer what the footbal club can. More tables and more space.

[tonymccallion]

Just realised i sounded a little sarcy there.
Bad day at the office sorry boys

[raymack]

Tony, regarding the committee ! There seemed to be much confusion when Dave Leal left. I had to ask Geordie at finals day last year if I was still on the committee, he confirmed to me later that I was, and then when Brad took over there seemed to be confusion again about who was and wasn't on it. It was only at the agm this year that I discovered this.

I know you are not having a dig at me, because in terms of space, tables and location etc Bowl is ideal and I totally agree, but in the interest of fairness I think it has to be shared around particularly this year when Bowl does not have a team in the league ! If it goes to a vote you kind of have to go with the majority.

I take your point about the Lossie finals day but when Elgin did play their Finals days at Bowl there was a lot of disgruntled people for various reasons. I wasn't one of them as I like playing there.

Now go and get out of the right side of bed Tony !!

cheers

Raymond

[Brad]

Glad to say the Tennant Arms were delighted to accept Finals Day for 2011!

[ian]

Tony seems to have got the wrong impression regarding Adam`s prosposal for the singles and doubles competitions. Ben and I did not say that we were against this proposal (in fact we were in favour) but that as this was a major change that could effect lots of players that this decision should be made at the agm to enable all teams to have their say.

[tonymccallion]

apologies ian and brad

[raymack]

Dec 5, 2010 22:25:30 GMT 1 ian said:

Tony seems to have got the wrong impression regarding Adam`s prosposal for the singles and doubles competitions. Ben and I did not say that we were against this proposal (in fact we were in favour) but that as this was a major change that could effect lots of players that this decision should be made at the agm to enable all teams to have their say.

Hi, Ian I dont think the AGM is the place to make decisions. First of all you don't get time to think properly about what you are voting for, and on top that people shouting over the top of each other doesnt help .

If this is something which we want to consider and as it is a fairly major change I would suggest putting Adams idea and any other similar ideas into a letter to each captain in the league encouraging them to respond or even provide us with a yes/no decision in advance of the AGM. This would give them a chance to discuss this within their team and we should get a more accurate and balanced response. A spur of the moment show of hands at an AGM is not the way to go in my view.

Personally though, I think we have to be careful not to go changing things just for the sake of it. I think the league is running extremely well this year, but the signs are there that some teams/players are not happy with all the changes there have been over the last couple of years. The Elgin pool league is definitly moving forward but we have to make sure we dont leave anyone behind !

Just my penniesworth !

[Brad]

Wise words Raymond,

John Kinnaird also recommended sending a sort of voting slip to the team captains on the back of the doubles/singles entry sheet, that way it would be guaranteed to be returned (completed hopefully!)