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Post by furrybeast on Aug 6, 2013 22:58:17 GMT 1
Aberdeen and District Pool League - One of the original WR leagues in Scotland have tonight voted to affiliate to the Scottish Pool Association and change to Blackball rules at the start of the new season.
Several more expected to follow in the North East of Scotland.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 6, 2013 23:53:01 GMT 1
Fair play to you George. You have been pushing this for a long time. I hope it is not too long before the EDPL sees the way the wind is blowing and makes the change too.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 7, 2013 10:34:28 GMT 1
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Post by dyb on Aug 7, 2013 14:58:59 GMT 1
Aberdeen voted to affiliate to the SPA for three years.
In the last week the following have requested one years trial as was afforded to ADPL two years ago:
Forres Peterhead Boden Ellon Fraserburgh
Seems the right time to try something different.
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Post by raymack on Aug 7, 2013 16:34:22 GMT 1
First of all genuine congratulations to George on achieving his goal. It proves that perseverance and patience can eventually get you what you want, even when at times it may have appeared that you were a lone voice.
I would hope that when ( I believe it is inevitable) our league here in Elgin get round to discussing/ voting on this again , that we will be making a choice on what is best at local level rather than simply following what Aberdeen or any of the other leagues mentioned have done.
Interesting times ahead for pool players in the North East !
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Post by furrybeast on Aug 7, 2013 20:49:06 GMT 1
Raymond, firstly thanks for the congratulations. It has been a long, long struggle to get the message across. Secondly, you are of course right; the priority for any league committee should be local matters. However, I believe it's important that those in charge of local leagues are at least aware of what is happening in the bigger scheme of things. I went out of my way many years ago now to find out as much as I could about the history of the game, it's current status and finally, predict where the future of the game may be heading. I don't expect others to go to those extremes, but what I would urge is that you take nothing anyone says to you as gospel - go and do a wee bit of homework yourself, and always try to get to the truth. Again, I did that, and eventually discovered that the league and I had been lied to many, many times on many, many matters. I can turn a blind eye to many human failings but mistrust is a hard feeling to get over. Anyhow, I digress.. The point I was trying (badly) to make with my opening post is that Aberdeen is now the final Scottish city to adopt blackball rules as their ruleset, after Dundee, Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Perth and Stirling. In fact, you need to go down to No35 on this list to find a World Rules playing league en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_cities_in_Scotland_by_populationThose facts speak volumes I believe.
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Post by raymack on Aug 7, 2013 22:43:20 GMT 1
Totally agree about league committees needing to be aware of what is going on in the world of pool. I think in Elgin we do a reasonable job of that but there are always plenty of rumours, propaganda and general mish mash of opinions to filter through before you can begin to gain an understanding of the 'bigger picture'. The problem is that the vast majority of players at league level don't care about the goings on beyond the boundaries of their own town, all they really care about is playing pool to rules they enjoy and understand (whichever they may be). As i said, interesting times ahead !
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Post by dyb on Aug 7, 2013 23:32:52 GMT 1
I would if asked, attend a meeting of the Elgin pool league to answer questions I have been to quite a few leagues over Scotland in the last few years.
Question to you.... if you don't mind.......
Are there any teams from Gardenstown.
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Post by Brad on Aug 8, 2013 0:14:15 GMT 1
Not in our league Davie. I'm not sure they have a league out that way anyomre but I believe there was a Cullen and Banff league back in the day. Elgin & District covers Elgin, Lhanbryde, Burghead and Hopeman. There's a stubborn league in Lossiemouth who play archaic rules but all their decent players play in our league. Just shy of 400 players last season so quite a sizeable league here. Our regional tour events have averaged 40+ this season with a peak entry of 93 last year. In other words, it would be in your benefit to sell the SPA to our players. I too believe it's inevitable that BB will take over and the SEPFs proposal to ditch regional tours in favour of a national tour will also lose them support in our region. A large majority of our players who enter weekend events aren't interested in travelling 200miles for a competition but we still have a couple of dozen who do. Like Raymond said, if BB in order for BB to be accepted by the majority, it's not the top players you'd have to sell it too, its the lads and lasses who only play in the league once a week who don't see any need for change - although there are many who would prefer to lose the deliberate foul and bring back the combination shot!
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 5:29:16 GMT 1
Fraserburgh now playing BB as of next season. Can we not just have an EGM and switch over rules straight away or at least get the SPA Trial voted in? Maybe play blackball rules in one of the cups or something before changing the season after next?
I really cannot see how we can continue to play world rules whilst everyone else is admitting that they are old hat...
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Post by Brad on Aug 8, 2013 8:04:57 GMT 1
We've already agreed to stick with WR and SEPF for this season and to be honest a vote right now would go the same way. If you want people to change, you'll have to educate them on the reasons why first or the vote will be the same result every time. Like I said before, run a couple of blackball open events so our players can see what the rules are all about. This did the trick in Aberdeen.
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Post by raymack on Aug 8, 2013 9:05:48 GMT 1
I think before you do anything you have to find out what the players at all levels really want. Ask questions....why do you want to retain WR, why did you vote to introduce BB, is the regional tour meeting with expectation, is the SEPF meeting our needs in region 4 and will they do so in the future , what could the SPA offer that would encourage more players to step out of the box and play pool beyond local league level and will they meet our needs.
If we do not know the answers to the above then we need to find out.
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Post by martinc on Aug 8, 2013 9:06:30 GMT 1
Totally agree Brad, cant throw any change down peoples throat, have to let them have a chance to make up their own mind, thats how i treated it in Aberdeen. Furry and im sure he wont mind me saying this was a bit to forcefull and vocal on the changeover a few years back, he's been proved correct (and by a long way correct in the end, but it took a wee bit longer than probably could have..but i think as a league we have made the right step for guys that want to play in big events, and also at a local level. I much prefer WR as im a fudging coont and its what ive mostly played at league level,, but BB rules are far easier for a new player / and more importantly young lads to come in and pick up.. Am i expecting some teething problems with our league night, hell course i am, we had the same 15 years ago when changed to WR, but i do think after a month or 2 all players and teams in the league wil have a handle on the rules and actually like them.. My advice to Elgin would be (I cant beleive you didnt take up the 1 year option to do both but thats how your league voted) would be to run a couple of events / mini tours / flyers to BB that can get as many players in, make it handicap or double elimination, tailor it for all standards, you have a decent Bank Balance, make it cheap to enter, add to the pot from league funds etc, that would at least give those outside your better players a taster for what BB rules are like. Your comittee main job is to look after your league first and foremost and its a good set up you have there, dont let the politics spoil it, and im sure you will be over to the darkside soon enough.. educate, educate educate I believe along with Broch, Peterhead and Ellon are at least trailing it, and may well move completely over..this will dilute you basefor players in NE to a small group, the WR events such as Opens / Interleague etc will suffer greatly... not sure whats happening down Fife way sure they are not happy with the SEPF either at the moment. The SEPF will very shortly becom a borders based organisation IMO good luck guys in whatever way you go tho !
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 9:43:40 GMT 1
I don't have to educate them on anything as I am nothing to do with the league. That is the committee's job and things have changed quite dramatically since the AGM hence the question being put forward about another EGM. The committee now need, in my opinion, to have this EGM to educate the players about has happened and what is happening across Scotland. If there were ever grounds for an EGM then this would be it.
By the way, we voted on rules at the AGM and not on SEPF affiliation or the SPA trial.
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Post by Brad on Aug 8, 2013 9:44:45 GMT 1
I share your opinion that SEPF will soon be confined to borders probably with small pockets of players in Kirkcaldy, montrose, Dundee and Aberdeen.
It will be interesting to see what the top players do. Namely, Daz, Patty and the Flemings.
Ray; I just said what you have on facebook - perhaps an EGM held after the SEPF's EGM, AGM and the Interleague will give us a better idea of what the future holds for the SEPF. In my opinion removing the Scottish Open and all other majors from the north would sound the end of world rules up here, especially if they decide to get shot of regional tours.
Have they offered their largest league or region (us by miles now) the option of hosting an event like the Open? Doubt it!
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 9:46:48 GMT 1
The spa offer FANTASTIC domestic comps for those who want to travel. We would continue to run EXCELLENT local comps for those who want to hang around here. It's a win win for EVERYONE...
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 9:51:31 GMT 1
Oh and NO rule change for a year. No brainer!
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Post by raymack on Aug 8, 2013 9:55:57 GMT 1
Have they offered their largest league or region (us by miles now) the option of hosting an event like the Open? Doubt it! With the venues/lack of tables and the absence of a proper committee in Region 4 we are currently not capable of hosting a viable, profitable major event like the Open .....only in my opinion of course
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 9:57:11 GMT 1
Pockets could hold it. And you would be fine on your own lol!
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Post by Brad on Aug 8, 2013 10:00:05 GMT 1
The SPA have their events on the first two weekends of each month. Subsequent weekends are free for us to do whatever we want with no further affiliation fees meaning a regional tour would benefit from 250 quid additional prize money + extra entrants from inverness and Nairn. We could even have an east and West tour with the finalists from Elgin/Nairn/inverness playing the guys from Fraserburgh/Aberdeen/Arbroath/Dundee way. Northern interleague could also be a possibility.
Also, like Martin said, the rules are simpler, easier to learn, easier to teach, easier to play and lots of the old boys who left when WR came in might return.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 10:05:11 GMT 1
So is there a commitment to have an edpl EGM after the SEPF EGM to reconsider the SPA trial?
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Post by martinc on Aug 8, 2013 10:30:21 GMT 1
do you not have anything in your constitution that an EGM can be called by committee at any time?
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Post by ian on Aug 8, 2013 12:04:03 GMT 1
This seems to be a contentious issue that needs to be resolved before the start of the season or it is just going to rumble on and on. I think that before an egm could take place we would need to have detailed proposals and alternatives presented to the committee and evidence of player/team interest for such a vote.
I personally think that it should be one player one vote for such a major change. But as there has always been such a small turnout at these meetings we need to look at ways of increasing participation in such votes. Whether it is using an online vote using this forum or by text/email to the edpl committe is open to debate. By undertaking the vote this way you would have more chance of a majority decision and then the league would be able to move on one way or another.
I personally prefer the BB rules but fully understand why some of the players in our league would like to stay with world rules and the opportunities that this gives them. But unless you give the majority of those playing in the league the rules that they want to play then in the long term players will continue to drift away or in the worst case senario end up with a breakaway league which would be disasterous.
So the sooner we get this resolved the better.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 8, 2013 12:38:13 GMT 1
Any breakaway league would be a laughing stock. Won't happen. Agree the committee needs to meet and put provision in place to communicate info.
Can we get a date set for such a meeting?
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Post by dyb on Aug 8, 2013 13:39:13 GMT 1
The SPA have their events on the first two weekends of each month. Subsequent weekends are free for us to do whatever we want with no further affiliation fees meaning a regional tour would benefit from 250 quid additional prize money + extra entrants from inverness and Nairn. We could even have an east and West tour with the finalists from Elgin/Nairn/inverness playing the guys from Fraserburgh/Aberdeen/Arbroath/Dundee way. Northern interleague could also be a possibility. Also, like Martin said, the rules are simpler, easier to learn, easier to teach, easier to play and lots of the old boys who left when WR came in might return. Other way round Brad... SPA take last 2/3 weekends and leave first 2 for leagues to do their own thing or qualifiers. The only exception is where dates are dictated by holiday camps.
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Post by dyb on Aug 8, 2013 13:40:31 GMT 1
I share your opinion that SEPF will soon be confined to borders probably with small pockets of players in Kirkcaldy, montrose, Dundee and Aberdeen. It will be interesting to see what the top players do. Namely, Daz, Patty and the Flemings. Ray; I just said what you have on facebook - perhaps an EGM held after the SEPF's EGM, AGM and the Interleague will give us a better idea of what the future holds for the SEPF. In my opinion removing the Scottish Open and all other majors from the north would sound the end of world rules up here, especially if they decide to get shot of regional tours. Have they offered their largest league or region (us by miles now) the option of hosting an event like the Open? Doubt it! Kirkcaldy League play Blackball.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 10, 2013 12:27:20 GMT 1
Looking likely that Ellon and Peterhead (Boddam) taking up SPA trial offer. WR leagues across the North are disappearing rapidly...
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 10, 2013 20:37:10 GMT 1
Seems like 22nd August is a popular date. Ellon AGM, Boddam EGM and Forres AGM. Interesting to see what comes of these meetings given that Aberdeen and Fraserburgh have taken the SPA plunge...
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Post by Brad on Aug 11, 2013 19:46:36 GMT 1
Adam, the committee could call and EGM but my point is that currently it would be a waste of time as the majority of players don't want a rule change simply because they have no idea what the alternative is. They won't turn up to a meeting for something that doesn't interest them, which is exactly what happened last time.
Any players who feel strongly that a change would benefit the league need to educate and influence enough people to win the vote BEFORE a meeting takes place otherwise it's just another wasted trip for SPA reps and ourselves.
Furry ran competitions for a couple of years before he had convinced enough people to switch.
People will vote for what they know and like rather than an alternative they've never seen or tried before.
Why not get a New Years comp on the go at Bowl 2000? At least then players could come along and give it a try.
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Post by thecentralscrutinizer on Aug 11, 2013 20:14:05 GMT 1
There have been numerous opportunity for guys to play BB comps that I have advertised on here and Raymond has put them on Facebook too. Uk open qualifiers, Highland Masters and Highlands/islands Superleague come to mind. How many times can we say to the guys round here the rules are simple, its old rules with touch cushion etc etc before they get that? I think it's more than little understanding of the rules but more a misunderstanding of what local pool would look like without an SEPF region 4 tour. I personally think it would be FANTASTIC given the discussions I have had but I understand the worry.
To be clear though, I would be happy to help run a comp quick fast if it was felt there would be a massive difference to be made out of it.
Furry's situation was different because he was dealing with a league who produced the bulk of the SEPF men's team and were founding members of the SEPF who had not played anything other than WR for 15 years. The backdrop to that situation was that Furry was proposing to change to SPA/BB rules and taking the SEPF/WEPF to task WAY IN ADVANCE of anyone else. You only have to look at the amount of staunch SEPF supporters down that way who have 'seen the light' if you get my meaning. It might be worth speaking to the likes of Lindsay and Martin to write a letter explaining why they have changed their minds over time.
At an EGM, there will be the luxury of being able to explain the current local, national and global state of pool using these recent events to explain the NEED for change to players. Why should we keep playing a ruleset that is on the way out? Why would we want to hamstring ourselves when the time comes that EVERYONE is playing BB rules apart from the EDPL? The reason I am pushing this is because I don't want to get into tht ridiculous situation given the actions of the other pool leagues around us.
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